Curse

The Josip · Dec 23, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Other than looks/armor, why do people use primary ritualists nowdays?

I'm asking because as a mesmer primary, I also understand there's very little reason to have mesmer primary, because most of the mesmer skills received (multiple) nerfs since good old days (and even then mesmer wasn't that good in PvE).

I liked good old Ritual Lord before nerf, but now, why? Spirit spam is very powerful, but I looked at my mesmer and realized I can just as well put 12 in Communing and 12 in Channeling, and I get exactly what Ritualist primary has (sure, I don't have minor runes but difference is negligible). Now I have a nice powerful SoS build without the need to bother creating Rt primary.

Regarding profession-based PvE skills (sunspear / allegiance), I also find it sad that some of these skills are tied to primary attribute (Leadership, Critical Agility..), while some are as effective even if you're not primary in that class. Which basically tells people it's good to have some class as main, but others are pointless.

Windf0rce · Dec 23, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

I recently created a Ritualist for spirit spamming, even though my Monk can also be decent at it.

Spawning Power seems to make the spirits less squishy (combined with Armor of Unfeeling the effect seems even stronger), even though I don't have a lot of points in it due to a huge attribute spread.

If I remember correctly, I run (numbers can be wrong):

Ritualist:
10+1+1 Channeling, 9+1 Communing, 9+1 Restoration, 8+1 Spawning.
Monk:
11 Channeling, 11 Communing, 9 Restoration.

Standard SoS build: SoS, Pain, Bloodsong, Vamp, Shadowsong, Spiritleech, AoU, Summon Spirits.

The Rt's spirits seem to be definitely more resilient and I run the exactly same bar on both characters; while the Monk can get the job done, the Rt seems better to solo tougher stuff (UW). Besides, people don't really take me seriously if I tell them I'll spirit spam as Mo/Rt (even though it is decent), so having a Rt primary is good.

Kenzo Skunk · Dec 23, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Painful bond instead of Spiritleech aura? Have you tried that Windy? Seems like mobs die a lot quicker.

upier · Dec 23, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Why ritualist for spirit spamming?
Because everything else is worse.

Windf0rce · Dec 23, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Good point Kenzo, yes sometimes I run it and things die much faster indeed. The attribute spread gets a bit better too because I can move points out of Resto.

The Spiritleech build is the one I use for UW solo runs - it is better than Painful Bond because Smite Crawlers have Smite Hex and it also helps against their Reversal of Fortune spam (less dmg = less heals). If I feel like running Chaos Planes, the Spectres also have Hex Breaker. Overall Spiritleech lets Spirits self heal and survive a little bit longer so it's usually my choice for UW.

But yes for Chamber-only runs I'd use Painful Bond, and possibly most other PvE areas too. Lots more of damage. I'm kind of a noob to Rits though, take my experience with them with a grain of salt. :P

dsielschott · Dec 23, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

well i run a spirit spam build on my ranger for all my vanquishes..... set up spirits take aggro pull to spirits....things die REALLy fast and easy, with the expertise with ranger you can put up spirits and spam other skills of your liking...... i admit i do have ursan on my bar for the double pulls and bosses but other than that i normally just sit and watch/call next target..... it works great..., i know a rit could do it a little better but not essential, so that is a good question as to why rit primary....i guess u answered your own question.....COOL ARMOR

EwolxNavi · Dec 23, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

There may be better classes for this but...

For me, my Rit primary is all about versatility. Most folks want Spirit Spam, and I can do that. But I can also spike, minion master and heal (and I can heal better than some monks I've seen). I do of course suffer from the problem that my ranger guildmate does. Versatile classes can't do things quite as well as the dedicated classes can, we're jacks-of-all-trades but masters of none. Still, I like being able to switch quickly to fill the various niches that a group requires when that particular class is in short supply.

The Josip · Dec 23, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why ritualist for spirit spamming?
Because everything else is worse.

Yes Upier, but that's exactly my point. Even the best Rt build is easily done by someone else in much the same way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

The Rt's spirits seem to be definitely more resilient

Which isn't important because good spirit spammer will properly place his spirits so they won't even come under (heavy) attack. And you can both move them fast, often, and heal for a lot, with that Kurzick skill.

So, yes, having high hp spirits is good to have, if the bonus is free.. but it's not worth a single point in Spawning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewolxnavi

But I can also spike, minion master and heal (and I can heal better than some monks I've seen).

How do you spike as Rt? That's the thing, in PvE HM which is all people play these days, channeling.. is just not going to do much compared to spirit spam for instance.

I don't know how good Rt is these days as minion masters, so won't comment on that. But as for heal.. yea, I played with Restoration a lot, but to be honest, I don't think that Restoration Rt comes even close to E/Mo heal/prot spammer. So, what I'm trying to say is, that, for instance, an Elementalist will spike better than Rt, will have more utility, will be able to use spirit spam builds as effective as those of Rt, and Ele will also heal for much more. Ok, Rt will be better at minion mastering.. but if you want minion mastering necro will do it better. Moreover, necro will heal better with uber soul reaping, necro will be just as good spirit spammer, and necro will spike much better than Rt (Discord..).

Quote:

For me, my Rit primary is all about versatility.

The thing is, with current skill balance, both Elementalist and Necromancer as not only more powerful than Rt, but also more versatile.

Gift3d · Dec 23, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

not for pve.

i'd expand a lot more on that but i mean look at this thread, it'd concern nobody so i'll leave it at that.

Essence Snow · Dec 23, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree on this one. Rit primary is not the best primary for spirit spamming. Since you can recast spirits before the orginal one die, spawning power doesn't really help that much. Two other clases have much better primaries for spirit spamming. Ranger (expertise) and Necro (soul reaping) are much more useful for energy management and there for saving and extra skill slot b/c u don't need to use boon of creation for energy and the armor bonus is nice as well.

EwolxNavi · Dec 23, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

All true.

However I play with a lot of PUG's, and the problem is finding people who actually do all those things. Dedicated classes, such as Necro's and Ele's, usually stick to what they're dedicated to do. Most Ele's that I've run into stick to nuking or spiking, because that's what people expect from them. Similarly Necro's are usually MMing or running one of those tri-nec-wiki-builds. And they do that because that's what people expect them to do. And as a Rit I run into that myself. Most folks want a Ritualist Spirit Spammer because that's what they're used to seeing.

The other thing is that (with the exception of minions), Rit versatility is built into their primary class. An ele cannot heal/prot and spirit spam all within the same class. He has to choose either one or the other, and run to a prof changer if he wants to switch. Necro's would also have to switch between Mo and Rit secondaries to exercise their versatility. Rit's can do both on the fly without having to rededicate the character to do something different, which makes them truly versatile.

As I said, other classes can do these jobs better, hence "jack of all trades, master of none". But I don't have to completely rebuild the character everytime I want it to fill a new role (like I had to when I switched my E/Me to E/Mo for awhile).

Edit: I should add that the spiking bit is something I've only tried recently in NM, when I'm running with my newer guildmates who are on their first PvE runthrough's. I imagine Rit spiking would be quite useless in HM.

FoxBat · Dec 23, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

16 channeling is now worth it for spirits, I'm not sure what these guys are going on about.

upier · Dec 23, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Yes Upier, but that's exactly my point. Even the best Rt build is easily done by someone else in much the same way.

That's the thing - it's not the same.
Spirit spam on a non-rit is ALWAYS weaker than on a ritualist. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by running it on a non-primary rit.

Konker2020 · Dec 23, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

All true.

However I play with a lot of PUG's, and the problem is finding people who actually do all those things. Dedicated classes, such as Necro's and Ele's, usually stick to what they're dedicated to do. Most Ele's that I've run into stick to nuking or spiking, because that's what people expect from them. Similarly Necro's are usually MMing or running one of those tri-nec-wiki-builds. And they do that because that's what people expect them to do. And as a Rit I run into that myself. Most folks want a Ritualist Spirit Spammer because that's what they're used to seeing.

The other thing is that (with the exception of minions), Rit versatility is built into their primary class. An ele cannot heal/prot and spirit spam all within the same class. He has to choose either one or the other, and run to a prof changer if he wants to switch. Necro's would also have to switch between Mo and Rit secondaries to exercise their versatility. Rit's can do both on the fly without having to rededicate the character to do something different, which makes them truly versatile.

As I said, other classes can do these jobs better, hence "jack of all trades, master of none". But I don't have to completely rebuild the character everytime I want it to fill a new role (like I had to when I switched my E/Me to E/Mo for awhile).

Edit: I should add that the spiking bit is something I've only tried recently in NM, when I'm running with my newer guildmates who are on their first PvE runthrough's. I imagine Rit spiking would be quite useless in HM.

Off topic, but for the record you don't have to go to a profession changer every time you want to switch your secondary, you can just open your skills menu and do it from there provided that you have already paid to switch to each one at least once.

EwolxNavi · Dec 23, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

Off topic, but for the record you don't have to go to a profession changer every time you want to switch your secondary, you can just open your skills menu and do it from there provided that you have already paid to switch to each one at least once.

I was not aware of that. Thanks. ^^

Arrogant Bastard · Dec 23, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

16 channeling gives you:

+26 armor ignoring damage per hit (SoS + Bloodsong combined)
+2 damage per hit on painful bond
+195 hp on each spirit with 13 spawning power (+60 with 0 Spawning; +154 with 9 Spawning)
+12 damage and +1 attack on splinter weapon (+7 duration with 9 Spawning; +10 duration with 13 Spawning; Same for GDW)
+28 damage Ancestor's Rage

The damage and durability of spirits on a Rit primary has a significant advantage over other classes. Splinter/GDW and Ancestor's Rage are bonuses. (The damage advantage a Rit primary has is all armor ignoring except for Ancestor's Rage which is only useful in certain teams).

dr love · Dec 23, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Other than looks/armor, why do people use primary ritualists nowdays?

uw, fow, VSF, 330 farming, SoS farming and maybe people play this game for fun? just maybe?

Konker2020 · Dec 23, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

I was not aware of that. Thanks. ^^

Not a problem, glad I could help.

Chthon · Dec 23, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

The damage, hp, and especially armor bonuses on spirits from headpiece + runes are significant. The hp bonus from SP, even at mid-low spec, is also significant.

zwei2stein · Dec 23, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

14 points splinter ....

Effect is nearly doubled compared to 12 point one